S3E4 – Our ingredients for good mental health, with Will and Ellie

E: Hi, my name is Ellie.

 

W: And my name is Will.

 

E: Welcome to Lively Minds, the podcast about mental health challenges that go beyond the ebb and flow of the everyday.

 

W: The podcast that looks at how developing an understanding of our mental health challenges influences how we address them.

 

E: So in today’s episode, Will and I are going to chat about what we think, for us, are the ingredients for good mental health.

 

W: Indeed we are. We thought it would be good to have an episode just the two of us again for a change actually because it’s been ages since we did an episode that was just the two of us. Who wants to go first? Are you going to go first Ellie?

 

E: Okay, I’ll go first then. So my main thing that I’ve noticed, I need absolutely to have a balance, probably 50/50, of space and time on my own at home and leaving the house and socialising with other people. And every single time I end up doing one more than the other, I get really rattled and weird and my stress levels, if I’ve been too busy basically, then my stress levels start getting high and I start getting all rattly and weird. And then I’m like, yeah, it’s because I’ve not had my downtime. So it’s almost like I’m a, one of those wind up toys, like I’ve only been winding myself up. I didn’t like let myself go. But then equally, and then this is the one that is more of a problem when you have so many complicated chronic health issues, and especially if you’re working remotely, which I do a lot. Like, last Christmas I had such a bad mental health period, and it’s because I got trapped in that staying indoors, doing the things that I think are good for my mental health like resting, making some art, doing video games, but because I didn’t at any point, possibly because I was a bit poorly as well, like physically. I didn’t go out, make the effort to force myself to go and see people. I just got so, so, down in a way that I think I hadn’t been for like a good year or so. And it’s only afterwards, I was like, oh yeah, of course I was miserable. I was just basically just stuck indoors for months, which is grim. (laughter) But it is like, it has to be a balance, because too much of one way and I really can’t cope.

 

W: I think you’ve hit upon something which is so fundamental really, in terms of balances that we need to strike to achieve good mental health. It’s that tension between the introverted side of ourselves and the extroverted side of ourselves. And I find that people talk about introversion as a negative thing and extroversion as a positive thing. And of course, the reality is they each have their negatives and they each have to have their positives and that need for balance is, I think, really important, and I’m sure that must apply to one extent or or another with everybody, I guess.

 

E: Yeah.

 

W: But also, I noticed what you said about how you thought you were doing all the things that were good for your mental health.

 

E: Yeah, because I know that the best thing for my mental health generally is, which for me every Saturday, because it’s Shabbat, so I take that very seriously in the sense that I am like from sunset on Friday until sunset on Saturday. I am not thinking about work, engaging with work, looking at an email, like nothing. And that’s like my space every week and I love it. So it’ll be like playing a new video game in bed with like hot water bottles on all my achy bits or maybe binge watching a drama and making some art. Those are all things that are good for my mental health and so I’ll keep doing them when I’m in a bad phase, like every day I’ll be doing that. And then it takes a long time for me to realise, actually, I’m hiding in my room and playing a video game, not treating myself to something I enjoy. You know, I’m like, this isn’t actually helping.

 

W: Are there any particular signs that with hindsight you look at and go, oh, that was an indication that actually I’m doing too much of one or too much the other, too much of getting out and being with people on the one hand or too much of being at home, on the other.

 

E: Yeah, my mental health is the signifier probably. It’s not very common for me to get deeply depressed for longer than a day, like quite serious low mood period. So it’s if I’m able to notice that’s what’s happening, what I need to do is try to remind myself. It’s hard to remember when I’m in it and thinking about myself. But usually at some point I realise it’s cause I’ve been indoors and I’ve just shut down basically. So the thing that makes me realise is usually whatever point at which it is, I realise that my mental health is like significantly different to normal.

 

W: And have you been able to establish any kind of rules, for want of a better word, about what kind of schedule you can adopt to make that balance as positive as possible? For me, for example, I try and limit the number of things that I do out and about that are going, what I call ‘off script’, by which I mean situations that are unusual or different for me, which I can find very stressful. So I have a little rule that I try and limit those to every other week, for example. So that’s like an example of a little rule that I have, which hopefully helps to keep those things in balance.

 

E: That period over winter where I sort of realised afterwards how bad I was mentally. And then I looked back and was like, well, of course it is, I barely left the house. But then I was like, actually, it’s because I work remotely and have no colleagues or office near me. And I, just by chance hadn’t had to be out and about at meetings as much in that December, November. And that’s how it ended up like, really miserable and in, then in the pattern of just hiding away. So I’ve done several things to combat that, which mean that I now have a structure that is built in to support balance. So two days a week I go into the studio and meet my support worker there and we work together. So I get at least two days a week with a colleague out of the house,

 

W: mmmm

 

E: even if I then go home afterwards. And actually work is where it gets difficult because obviously there might be one week where I have to be out and about every single day. And I don’t like that either. Also for physical reasons,

 

W: mmmm

 

E: like just as I’ve learned to live with chronic illness and disability, I’ve realised that I now just do it subconsciously, but I pattern my weeks and life with almost like an on day and an off day for my body.

 

W: mmmm

 

E: Like, the start of next week, I’m going to Wrexham for three days with work, and I then won’t schedule anything particularly big or exhausting for the second bit of the week. I plan my downtime whenever I’m planning something that’s uptime.

 

W: In a sense, it’s about routine, I guess. On the one hand, elements of a fixed routine can be very helpful, like going into the studio. On the other hand, actually be able to build flexibility into a routine where, for example, you’re away for a few days,

 

E: Yeah

 

E: and then you have to build in some rest time after those few days is also really important, isn’t it?

 

E: Yeah. And as we were discussing before, I mean, my life is so chaotic that a routine has never have been possible for me, I don’t think. But what actually it’s about is having like a base skeleton routine. So there might often be periods where it fluctuates and you know you can’t do that week because you’ve got all this other stuff going on. But actually, it’s nice to just have in my head that structure of having those two or three days spread out in the way that they are. I know that’s the thing I can come back to

 

W: mmm

 

E: after a busy period.

 

[MUSIC PLAYING]

 

W: The first ingredient I want to bring to the table kind of chimes with what you’ve just been talking about in a way, because mine is reading.

 

E: Aah

 

W: I don’t read very much on the whole, I would say. And when I do read, it’s often for work. Yet, one thing that I really do enjoy reading is science fiction. I’m a big science fiction fan, and I have had my mind opened to science fiction that goes beyond so-called space opera

 

E: oooo

 

W: and into much more interesting kind of conceptual science fiction stuff, which is more about how we perceive the world. And the reason why I enjoy it is because if I’m really getting into a book, it’s one of the few occasions when I can forget myself.

 

E: Yeah.

 

W: And be completely absorbed by something else. And recently, We spoke to Afroza Ahmed about mindfulness. And there is evidence to say that mindfulness can have very positive impacts on well-being. And for those who don’t know, mindfulness is kind of a form of meditation where we are present with the self, and we focus on the moment. And Afroza talked about how we spend so much of our time ‘running away from ourselves’, was the term that she used. And that’s really interesting because I totally get that sometimes you just have to be able to sit with the uncomfortable thoughts, feelings that come with long-term mental health problems. And actually being able to learn to sit with those can be in itself part of recovery. But at other times, actually, you just need to be distracted.

 

E: Yeah, and that’s not…

 

W: Fully distracted.

 

E: Yeah, and I think that’s the same with me in the video games, because they’re always like visual novels. They’re very story-heavy, it’s not that I’m playing like Call of Duty. I’m doing it in the same reason that I would be reading a fictional book. It’s like the story and things.

 

W: mmmm

 

E: And I was going to say escapism, but then I was thinking, well, actually, we’re humans and we like to do things that we find fun. And if you don’t do anything fun for ages, it makes sense that your mental health goes downhill. So actually it’s not always an escapism and a trying to avoid sitting with things. It’s, you’re doing it because you enjoy it and it does actually make you happy and that’s okay. It’s like…
(laughter)

 

W: Yeah, yeah it’s so easy to reframe it as some kind of avoidance isn’t it?

 

E: Yeah and it’s just going “Hold on a second, hold on a second!” And I guess actually that’s what I was saying before, the point at which it becomes avoidance, like with the video game and me hiding in my bed, it’ll get to a point where I’m like, I’m not doing this because I’m lifting my mood by doing something I enjoy. I’m actually just hiding and playing this video game because I don’t know what else to do. And at that point, I am doing it for avoidance.

 

W: Yeah

 

E: yeah.

 

W: Again, it comes back to that notion of balance, doesn’t it? And we’re not suggesting obviously that Afroza was saying that we shouldn’t do things that are distracting. I think what was interesting about the conversation was that for a lot of people, the balance has shifted way too far towards the being distracted by stuff.

 

E: Oh yeah.

 

W: And we just need to sort of shift that balance back a little bit so that we are spending more time in the moment being aware of our body, being aware of our surroundings.

 

E: Yeah

 

W: And mindfulness is something which I would sort of also add into the ingredients in a sense because I do have this really weird kind of relationship with mindfulness. I totally get that there’s a lot of evidence to say that mindfulness works in terms of improving mental health. I also find it incredibly difficult to do. And one of the other things that I found quite interesting about the conversation with Afroza was about this idea of not just doing mindfulness but also doing things mindfully. And I think that there is a lot of power in doing things that you might ordinarily do mindfully. So in a sense one, one could argue that by reading a book that you’re really engaged in or by playing a computer game that you really enjoy, it could be argued that you are being mindful because you’re in that moment. And in that broader sense, that is a form of mindfulness.

 

E: Yeah.

 

W: One could argue.

 

E: One could.

 

W: Let’s go to a short break, Ellie.

 

E: Okey dokey.

 

[Music]

 

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[music fades]

 

W: So Ellie, what is your second ingredient for good mental health?

 

E: I think doing something creative is important for my mental health, but again it’s one that I only realise that when I’ve not done it for ages and then think, oh yeah, that’s probably part of why I’m feeling really weird. And it doesn’t have to be me making something actually, it could be like going to an art gallery or being surrounded by, in my case, I like visual art and going to exhibitions and because I’m busy with work and exhausted I’m really bad at remembering to make myself go to things like that that I know I will enjoy.

 

W: Do you think that it’s better from a mental health point of view to be a kind of consumer of art and creativity by going to galleries, exhibitions? Or do you think it’s better when you are actually doing the creating?

 

E: I know that the best situation is if I go to an exhibition, and I am really lucky I work in visual art so I do sometimes get to just do this as part of my job, and the best situation is if I go to see something or I meet an artist and looking at their artworks and I feel really excited about it and I can’t wait to get home and try it and make one myself. It gives me an idea for something to do at home. That’s like the best scenario for me I think. I think going and being inspired probably helps my mental health best actually because the making stuff thing, I have a bit of a complicated relationship to it I think because the second it becomes in my head like a project or there’s a finished thing I want to make I just give up, because to me then it’s like work so it’s like it’s not fun anymore. And so all of my art is always me doodling. That’s what I enjoy is like, watching TV or film or listening to music and just playing around with stuff. I’m really bad at ever finishing anything. (laughter)

 

W: In some ways, though, having the freedom to not finish it is itself a positive thing, because I think that the thing that makes it something that you feel you have to finish kind of starts making it feel like work and it goes from the want to, to ought to space.

 

E: I know and so that’s why I end up never finishing anything but also like it would be quite nice to finish something that I started.

 

W: But to what extent do you think the desire to finish something is you wanting to finish it because you think you will enjoy it and it’ll have a positive impact on you and to what extent do you think it’s because you feel like you should finish it?

 

E: It’s a bit of both. I think I’m very impatient which is why it’s been good that I’ve been teaching myself textiles stuff because I’m forcing myself to be slow and it means I can have a few projects sort of on the go that I can dip in and out of and it’ll take me years to finish one of them but that kind of allows me to enjoy them and not get stressed about them.

 

[music]

 

W: So my second ingredient for good mental health, I’m going to choose exercise.

 

E: mmmm

 

W: Now I’m choosing this in a sense because once again I think there’s a bit of a tension that’s inherent within this idea. For me there certainly is anyway. So first of all when I say exercise I’m not talking about running, I literally just go for a walk every day. I’m very lucky in that I do live quite centrally in Newcastle but there’s something called the Dean that just runs from the bottom of my street up for like three miles. There’s a valley with a river and it’s very pleasant. So I find that if I haven’t gone out for my daily couple of miles walk, I really do feel it.

 

E: But is that the exercise component or is that more about the being outside and the mindfulness of going for a walk? Because that’s what I would imagine it was rather than…

 

W: Oh, I think it could be a bit of both. I do like to look at my steps app and see what I’m doing, how I’m doing on that front. But you’re right, in the end, I think a lot of it is just to do with being out in the fresh air. The reason why I think there’s a little bit of a tension with it though is that I’m very conscious that there is a lot of evidence out there to say that exercise is good for one’s mental health. The, the risk with it is that it starts to play a little bit too much into the self-help culture

 

E: Yeah

 

W: that is instilled where the expectation is upon the individual to improve their mental health by doing exercise

 

E: Yeah

 

W: and that actually for a lot of people it’s way more complicated than that and yet the risk of the self-help culture which is prevalent throughout society not just through the well-being industry but also within our health service because mental health services are so underfunded that the risk I think is that the whole exercise is good for you do exercise do exercise can risk putting too much onus on the individual where in actual fact the solution is much more complicated and I think it’s possible to hold both of those opinions I think it’s possible to hold the idea that exercise is, is a positive thing. And I certainly find that has a notable impact on my mental wellbeing.

 

E: Yeah

 

W: At the same time, I just wanna be cautious that it’s not just like part of this quick fix idea around mental health.

 

E: Yeah. It’s just, it is what you’ve identified for you as a helpful ingredient, because that’s not even an option for me. If you’ve got any kind of physical disability, there’s like a whole other thing there. Like if the doctor’s like, “Well, do you exercise?” I’m like, “No, but I’m very active.” because in my mind, I push my body regularly by being up and about on my feet, at work, travelling, going to meet, this sort of thing. And I do my exercises, like my physio exercises. So in my head, I’m always really confused, talking to people, because I’m like, I think I exercise and that I’m really active because I get to the limit and sometimes then push it a bit. And then it always is bad for me the next day. But the doctor’s always like, “Yeah, that’s not exercise. That doesn’t count.” And I’m like, “Okay, well, I don’t know.” (laughs)

 

It’s actually a good point though, ’cause I’ve been supposed to have been going swimming, ’cause I realised I can do it and it doesn’t flare anything up. And I’ve still not got round to actually making the time to go. I don’t know, it’s just, I think exercise is just very difficult for a lot of people for a lot of reasons.

 

W: And as you alluded as well, it depends also on how you define it, right?

 

E: Yeah, but you are right in that any time I have done a bit of swimming, I felt really good and was like, “Oh wow, imagine if I could do this regularly. Maybe I’d feel amazing.”

 

[music]

 

E: I’m quite interested to know from people listening what they think their ingredients are
for things that we’ve not mentioned. I would be really interested in that if you want to get in touch.

 

W: Get in touch with our new email address.

 

E: Our new email, hello@livelymindspod.com

 

W: or on the socials @livelymindspod as well as another option.

 

E: Thank you for listening. As always you can find us on social media at Lively Minds Pod as well as on our new website livelymindspod.com.

 

W: Make sure you subscribe to Lively Minds wherever you get your podcasts and tune in again next month for another episode.

 

E: Please note that this show does not constitute medical advice and is not a replacement for seeking professional help. You can find signposting to support on our new website livelymindspod.com.

 

W: Take care and bye for now

 

E: Bye!
[whooshing]
[music fade]