S3E9 – Collective Care, with Charlie Fitz and Miss Jacqui

W: Hi everybody, it’s Will here. Just to give you a heads up that there is a brief reference to suicidal ideation in this episode. 

 

Please take care whilst listening and for signposting to support, please visit our website, livelymindspod.com

 

[music]

 

W: Hi, my name is Will.

 

E: And my name is Ellie.

 

W: Welcome to Lively Minds, the podcast about mental health challenges that go beyond the ebb and flow of the everyday. 

 

E: The podcast that looks at how developing an understanding of our mental health influences how we address it. 

 

[music] 

 

W: In today’s episode, we’ll be doing things a little bit differently. We’re going to be featuring a conversation between Ellie and two of her friends, artists, Charlie Fitz and Miss Jackie, who will be discussing how triad or is it triad? 

 

E: Oh, don’t. 

 

W: The collective they formed during COVID has become an essential space for supporting each other’s well-being. We’ll dip in and out of the conversation so that Ellie can guide us through it.

 

E: So the reason that we’re having to do this slightly differently is that on Monday when we did the recording I thought I was just really tired and having a really bad narcolepsy day which, you know probably was, but then it turned out I had a virus but I didn’t realise but I was just completely demented and deranged all day. 

 

[laughter]

 

E: And So the conversation we had was just like, so disorganized and afterwards I was like yeah we’re probably gonna have to do that again.

 

W: It was a bit disorganized but you know what, as I hope our listeners will agree there’s something just so life-affirming about the conversation. Yeah I think with a little bit of hand-holding I think that our audience will really enjoy it as well. Could you begin just by briefly introducing us to Charlie and to Miss Jackie and their artistic practice and how you met them.

 

E: Of course. So Charlie is an amazing, sick, disabled artist and at the moment produces loads of amazing oil paintings in particular but does a lot of work in a lot of different areas around medical humanities and film and photography with their husband and creative partner Oscar Vinter as well. And Miss Jackie is a superstar, super glam musician, writer, songwriter, poet, spoken word, wonderful person. In fact, at the end of the recording, she’s like, “Oh yeah, I’ve just got a nip off to this other thing at one o’clock.” And we were like, “Yeah, okay.” And then the thing she nipped off to was like performing on stage for London Borough of Culture to this massive crowd and this, we were just like “what?!?!” 

 

[Laughter]

 

E: so yeah, they’re both really really amazing, I can’t, I actually have no idea how I met Charlie. I think we were just in touch on Instagram because it was just something that came from being on Instagram and being chronically ill and doing some art about it and then Miss Jackie I met really early on in the pandemic through some disability activism stuff that was going on at the time and we just clicked.

 

W: In 2020 you were successful in raising DYCP funding 

 

E: Yeah

 

W: which stands for developing your creative practice and Arts Council England Artist Development Fund.

 

E: Yeah it’s probably good to say about the context of that because I’m immunocompromised and I was shielding for the pandemic so I was just in one room with my partner at the time, for like 18 months, that was when I applied for DYCP and it was about my creative practice because I was trying to figure out how to make art or connect with people or do anything therapeutic if, at that point, I felt I was going to just be living in one room, not even one flat or something, just one room for you know, what what seemed like forever, because none of us knew at the time. Do you remember it was just like, is this ever going to end? 

 

W: And in order to achieve that connection, you decided to set up an artist collective called Triad. So let’s head over to the conversation between yous to find out more.

 

E: So what do you call Triad? I think of it as a virtual studio.

 

C: That’s what I call it, yeah.

 

E: initially I got DYCP funding from the Arts Council in 2020, to try and see if we could have a remote artist studio space like as though we were sharing a studio space but 

 

MJ: yeah 

 

E: in a pandemic, virtually, I just was like I really like you both and I think you’d like each other. So would you should, we meet on zoom? 

 

MJ: That is exactly what happened. I can remember our first meeting and we were all just like oh, this isn’t awkward at all we just get each other yeah, 

 

E: So nice. 

 

C: Yeah

 

E: I think that is it and like we did have like because we tried out like different studio days where we had like creative days and we tried out different ways of doing it like to try and mimic as though if we were sharing like a artist studio and we had the online exhibition of what we were doing and put it in the show notes but then it became more like collective care. 

 

W: So we’re just dipping out of the conversation to quickly find out what collective care means. Ellie could you give us a summary?

 

E: I think it means different things to different people but generally I think collective care means taking equal responsibility in terms of the care provided to yourself and to others. In a work setup or actually in religious setups, or I guess lots of peer support groups, there’s generally a facilitator or a leader, a pastor, a, there’s like “a person” who kind of organises the group but therefore ends up taking on a lot of the emotional responsibility, and so the collective care is more just like, taking equal responsibility in terms of the care provided to yourself and to others. 

 

W: And as we’ll hear from Charlie, elements of collective care naturally started emerging from the very outset. 

 

C: I think there was an element of collective care from the start. We’d done a bit of work together, you’d put on an exhibition of my work, right? 

 

E: Yeah

 

C: That was before Triad. 

 

E: Yeah

 

C: You reached out to me and were like, yeah, I’ve got this funding, I want to make this kind of care space where we make art together, or where we are creative together and where we can have community like as though you were going out to a job right

 

E: Yeah

 

 and you’d have you’d have conversations with people at the water cooler right 

 

E: Yes that was it oh my god yeah!

 

[laughter] 

 

C: and then we used that term water cooler to create our kind of our social meetups were called ‘the water cooler’ and that was like we meet up and that’s just to have like social contact, contact with people who are on a level in the same like different but similar situations or make, making creative work in like disability spaces or as disabled women. 

 

E: Yes I’d forgotten that was kind of the point wasn’t it because it was like we’re all freelancers working just in isolation and it was yeah so yeah meeting over the water cooler. 

 

C: Meeting over the water cooler. 

 

E: I’ve actually never ever ever had an experience with a water cooler. 

 

C: It’s like a tv thing isn’t it? 

 

E: Yeah I know, I don’t think anyone actually chats, over a water cooler.

 

C: Then we had the creative aspects. So we were like, okay, we wanna make creative things together. And I think that we will still do that. But obviously as we’ve all gone back to work in a variety of ways, it’s been like the collective care, social aspect of it. And also having people who are also in the industry in different ways to speak to and be like, this thing happened. Like, what are your thoughts? Like, is this okay? I’ve been treated this way or… right? So for me that in terms of like mental health and collective care and obviously the fact that we all bonded instantly. This bond of people who don’t necessarily ever have to meet in person. 

 

E: And actually we have never all been 

 

C: in the same place. 

 

E: In person at the same time. When we haven’t had a zoom in ages I feel like we all feel so much better after we do, is like food for the soul kind of thing. 

 

C: I often don’t realise how much I need it until we’re together. 

 

E: Yeah

 

C: I’ll notice that like my mental health is like getting really bad and things are just like crumbling around me and it’s not like we’re not trying to meet, because we all are but we have like differing schedules and then when we do I’m like oh that was infinitely better than like all the other mental health support I have access to. 

 

E: Miss Jackie told Charlie and I what for her were the most important aspects of our meetings.

 

MJ: I think it’s the thing of like, when you talk to people who just get it, like there’s no expectation of like, you having to like, over explain yourself. Does that make sense? So like, if we can’t meet for whatever reason, it’s never like, I never feel like bad to say, oh I can’t meet because I don’t feel well, or like my schedule’s just gone out the window and I have to catch up on stuff. Whereas I feel like with other people or groups or whatever, I have to go, “Oh, well, I can’t do this because actually I’ve just got…”

 

E: Like having to justify stuff.

 

MJ: Yeah. And it’s like, and I think that’s why the like, concept of collective care is that we just give each other that grace and space to be like, “I feel like hot garbage today, you know, and not having to like, like fake our way through it or like be, “oh, well, yeah, like I feel like garbage but I’ve really got to show up”. It’s like actually no, take the time you need and like there’s no need to explain it like you just do it, and I love the fact that we’re always like “this is an apology free zone” like “no apologies needed”, because I think we do get into this habit of like, saying we’re sorry and apologizing for just existing, it’s not even that we did anything wrong. So I, I always feel incredible just like after we’ve had a chat, because I’m just like I can literally just be like “this and this happened” and it just lives in the space without it being like “well did you do this”, “this is how you fix it, de de de de de” and it’s like, oh actually I just needed to say it out loud to other human beings that aren’t going to make me feel like I should question this feeling that I have, which is so rare, and so unique in terms of like being able to find two incredible human beings that just get it and I can just be, just be, like there’s no extra razzle dazzle, there’s no extra fluff, there’s just like, this is how I feel, this is what’s going on, this is a creative thing that’s going on, oh if such and such just happened, don’t you think that’s a bit weird? It’s a bit weird, you know? This is how, like, just having that space, I don’t think a lot of freelancers especially get that opportunity.

 

E: Yeah, and I think we’re all disabled and identify as disabled and having a space where we can share the really, like, specific problems that come up at work in a working environment is really important part of our connection as well I think. 

 

MJ: We are our own HR. 

 

E: We are. 

 

W: So Ellie when you were preparing for this conversation I did wonder how you might manage boundaries within these meetings. 

 

E: mmmm 

 

W: Now with hindsight I realised that I was kind of being a bit like “how do you manage boundaries during these meetings?” 

 

E: But it’s good that you asked me the question in that kind of way because it meant that we had to think about it. 

 

W: Well let’s head over to Miss Jackie who gave us her thoughts on this.

 

MJ: I think boundaries, I think there’s such an understanding of ourselves and each other. Boundaries are just in place. Like if we’re about to speak about something that might be a trigger, we always offer a trigger warning before we start talking about it or in the group chat. We’ll send the voice note and it’s a beautiful noise and we’ll be like, “You don’t have to listen to this now, listen to this later”. That, I feel like is a boundary. If someone sent a ..

 

E: That’s how we do it. 

 

C: Yeah.

 

MJ: Yeah. It’s just ingrained in us as a group, but I think us as individuals. So if my sleep schedule goes out the window and I want to send something at 4am, it’s not that I’m just… I wouldn’t do it at 4am because I’m a sleepy girl. But if I was to do it, I would just be like, this isn’t for now. 

 

E: Yeah. 

 

C: Yeah. I think if we tried to do this and we weren’t the three people that we were in might not have worked right? 

 

E: Yep

 

MJ: Yeah

 

C: The fact is we all are very respectful of capacity and boundaries and we’re all very knowledgeable about lots of different things that relate to those kind of topics, if that makes sense. 

 

MJ: Yeah

 

C: You know mental health, physical health, life experiences and so on. 

 

E: Yeah 

 

C: So because we bring that, I think we naturally have created this space in which there’s just like a respect and also there’s not a fear that, okay, I’m too ill to connect for six months. There’s not a fear that we’re going to disappear either, 

 

E: Yeah

 

C: you know, or that you’re going to be like shunned or that you have to meet a certain expect, expectation

 

MJ: Yeah

 

C: and then also because there is such a respect for each other’s boundaries if one of us reached out and said I’m, “I need you now” we would probably all know that actually okay I need to find a way to drop what I’m doing because if they’re saying that, they wouldn’t just say, they wouldn’t be alarmist, they wouldn’t take my time unless it was really important. I mean maybe I’m wrong but I feel like if I reached out to you guys and said I’m in absolute like, what’s the word? Emergency now and I just need you. 

 

MJ: I’m hopping in the car and I’m going to zoom and make my way to wherever you are. I’m going to be on zoom so I can see you, put eyes on you. And then I’m in the car. I’m showing up wherever you are!

 

C: Yeah, I feel like there is, just a level of understanding and maybe that’s why it works so well. 

 

MJ: But you said something really great about like expectation. Like I think as disabled women in particular, we have such like, the world has such an expectation of who we can and can’t be or should or shouldn’t be, that I think we don’t have expectations of each other in terms of like, “you are supposed to be my friend like this and if you’re not my friend like this, then we’re not friends”

 

E: And you’re doing something wrong.

 

MJ: Yeah, it’s like actually we understand that we all have our own individual lives. We understand that we all have our own individual needs. We all understand that lives go like, there’s ups and downs and different, like there’s just different things that happen. And even when we’re not all in the same space, as soon as we’re like on zoom, it just feels like a relief in such a lovely way because it’s one of the only spaces for me personally where I can drop all expectations of myself. It was just that respect for also energy levels 

 

C: mmm

 

E: Yeah

 

MJ: because I remember 2020, I was sleeping a lot just to kill the time. Do you know what I mean? Like, so it was like, “Oh yeah, actually I can’t do anything before this time.” 

 

E: Yeah 

 

MJ: And it wasn’t a problem. And I think it’s all of those little questions that seem so frivolous that have built such a bond between us. 

 

E: Yeah

 

C: mmm 

 

MJ: And I can just have a chat, like “what’s going on?”, “this is going on”, “oh yeah?”, “oh my god, that happened”, “oh my god, I’m so happy for you”. 

 

[Laughter]

 

MJ: Like, do you know what I mean?  It isn’t a one space, there isn’t like this solid, “you have to be this way”.

 

E: Yeah

 

MJ: And I think that is what makes it so like beautiful. 

 

C: mmm 

 

MJ: Oh my god I’m getting emotional! 

 

E: I know I feel like as a space it’s really kind to me and it reminds me to be kinder to myself than I am normally or would be normally, because like I’ll talk to you guys and be like why am I being so harsh on my, like Jackie and Charlie would never be that harsh to me about that like why am I being horrible to me they wouldn’t do that to me 

 

MJ: yeah.

 

C: Haven’t we even said to you before don’t, like “don’t treat my friend like that” in relation to yourself. I think that that’s been a phrase that’s been used. Like “why are you being like that with yourself? That’s my friend”. I think we’ve actually used that phrase before.

 

E: [Laughter]

 

MJ: Yeah we absolutely have. I think we were like, getting like, jokingly upset about like I would never let anyone speak to my friend like that. Excuse me? 

 

E: Yeah for me at least there isn’t anything else like it. Like I don’t have another space in my life that’s like this.

 

C: Obviously this is a mental health podcast and my mental health has not been good over the last five years because of COVID, because of all kinds of things. 

 

E: Yeah

 

C: Like, I see a content warning for kind of suicidal ideation. I don’t know if I would be here if I didn’t have you guys during that time. That is a really, that is a genuine, genuine, like I do not know if I would be.

 

MJ: Charlie, you’re going to make me so often and I’m trying to let the people know I’m not swaffed.

 

C: Because we, we, I got Stanley, my dog, 

 

E: Yeah 

 

C: because I was in such a bad place mentally. And so my, my family were like, let’s get you a dog or something to take care of, to stop you from, you know, acting on these feelings. And then Stanley was how old when we started this? Like, 

 

MJ: didn’t you just get him?

 

C: He was like six weeks or something.

 

E: Yeah you’d literally just got him.

 

C: So you contacted me when I was at my absolute lowest, which became just this, the most essential mental health kind of collective care community that I have.

 

MJ: Again, it’s been five years, right? There was one winter where I was like, my own mental health was like 

 

E: Yeah 

 

MJ: in the toilet. 

 

E: Yeah, I remember that.

 

MJ: I’m talking in the absolute toilet. I’ve been told that I’m quite intimidating, but once you get to know me, I’m like the hugest goofball and like

 

C: True. 

 

MJ: Relax the days are cool! But I remember just like, I was at like, breaking point, and I know we had a meeting, I was like, “yeah, I’m just gonna suck it up for this meeting, and we’re gonna chitchat, and I’m gonna say everything’s good” and then I think, I can’t remember someone else, but someone was like, “okay, are you okay?” And I just was like, no –

 

E: Yeah.

 

MJ: And I had like a whole break, and I was just like,

 

E: I remember that. 

 

MJ: I’ve never met these women in life, and they’ve just seen me cry, like, hard-bodied cry, but the care that you’re, both thousands of miles away from me, but I just felt so like held in that moment and just looked after in a way that wasn’t patronizing. It wasn’t in a way that was like, “oh, they’re there, everything’s gonna be fine”. It was just like, no, you’re allowed to feel your feelings. And you’re allowed to say that you’re sad in this moment.

 

C: It’s like a space to bear witness, right? To bear witness and hold, hold each other and offer comfort, not solutions.

 

E & MJ: Yes.

 

C: And there’s always like a footnote of, but if you need a solution, you let me know.

 

E: Solutions can be requested.

 

C: If you need me to do research, if you need me to call someone, if you need me to, but that’s not the response. 

 

E: Yeah, yeah

 

C: That’s not–

 

E: That’s not the go-to point of sharing a problem.

 

C: Yeah.

 

E: What’s that saying?

 

MJ: Yeah, ’cause sometimes you need to just say things out loud.

 

C: Yeah.

 

MJ: And then you’re like, oh, okay, cool.

 

E: Yeah, and what’s that saying? like a problem shared is a problem halved or something. But I feel like that is part of the point is that, yeah we share it and it becomes less of a massive weight on one of us as an individual. That’s how I feel when I share. 

 

MJ: Yeah

 

C: And even though we love each other and we don’t want each other to suffer, we are suffering a lot of the time, that’s just life. But my pain maybe isn’t as heavy on you and, and your pain isn’t as heavy on me and we want to hold it for each other. 

 

E: Yeah.

 

MJ: Oh my God, we’re amazing.

 

[laughter]

 

E: We are amazing. And now I’m just like, we’ve just done a podcast episode that’s literally just three of us sat talking about how amazing we are!

 

[laughter]

 

W: Okay, we’ll return to the conversation in a moment, but for now, let’s take a short break.

 

W: We are on social media. Come over and tell us what you thought of a show, suggest a topic for future shows, or just say hello. Our handle is the same across all platforms, Lively Minds Pod all one word. You’ll find this on X, Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn and you’ll find all the links to our social media pages at livelymindspod.com. You can also contact us by emailing hello@livelymindspod.com

 

[upbeat music]

 

E: Finally, I wanted to ask Charlie and Miss Jackie how we thought other people could find similar ways to creating spaces like this that support one another’s mental health and wellbeing.

 

C: Yeah, ’cause you literally reached out to two people and said, “I’ll pay you to hang out with me for a bit.” And then we didn’t want to stop.

 

[laughter]

 

E: “I’ll pay you to hang out with me for a bit.” Oh my God, how many of my friendships have started that way?

 

E: Yeah, that is one.

[both laughing]

 

C: But then you made yourself so indispensable as a friend.

 

MJ: Yeah. No, but I think that’s the thing. I think it’s absolutely possible for people to find this. I think it’s finding people that you respect and that also has respect for you. I think that’s like the baseline of finding something like this. I also think the fact that it’s only the three of us, like I don’t know how it would work if there was like five, six, seven, eight, nine of us. 

 

E: mmm

 

MJ: I think that might be a bit overwhelming for me personally.

 

C: Yeah

 

E: And actually because of how it set, was set up when I was like, “hello, can I pay you to hang out with me?” I wonder if part of it is that the expectations were really, have always been really clear from the start. I don’t know. I wonder if like the formalness of the setting up helped. 

 

MJ: I think the way it was set– but I also think sometimes people go, that person’s an artist, that person’s an artist, that person’s an artist. Chuck them together, and they’re going to make magic. And it’s actually like, no, they don’t even like each other.

 

[Laughter}

 

E: But the fact that you identified that like me and Charlie both got on with you and all these two people will also get along is a very unique skill to have. 

 

C: And I suppose if you’re thinking about how someone could replicate this, having that, first of all, that kind of like gumption to go after what they want in terms of a space like this, but then also I suppose you would need to think about if those kind of boundaries and that kind of way of being isn’t natural to people entering a group like that. How do you develop that? 

 

E: Yeah

 

C: Is it a case of like setting out some kind of, I don’t know, some kind of training or rules?

 

MJ: I think it goes back to the thing of expectations. Like, I would say that I have five things that are non-negotiable for the group, whether that’s boundaries that nobody can contact each other after a certain time. That’s, that’s, do you know what I mean? I think if you have five group rules or five points from, of an agreement, and the reason I use five because that’s sometimes when people make like rules or agreements, it’s like a whole 30 pages long. I think, and each point could like, that is like the anchor point, that’s the part of the foundation. And I think when you’re creating a group like that, even though it came so naturally to us, it’s that thing of what are you expecting to get out of this group? and what are you also willing to give? 

 

E: Yep

 

C: mmmm

 

MJ: Because it’s a two-way street. You can’t be like, “I want this from the group. I want this from the group. I want this from the group.” But you’re not also willing to give in terms of time and energy and like everything that you’re looking for. Its that thing of like treat others the way you want to be treated?

 

C: Yeah

 

MJ: I think it is possible to create, but it is what are your expectations? what is everybody else’s expectations and then I think, then it goes to, do you have a level of respect to, respect everybody’s expectations? Then I think boundaries come after that because then it’s like, if your expectation is, I want to check in once a month, but actually somebody’s schedule can’t accommodate that. You have to find a middle ground or you both can’t be in that group, if that makes sense?

 

C: mmm.

 

E: Yeah.

 

MJ: So it’s just, yeah, it’s figuring out. I think it’s possible, but it does take time. 

 

C: And it has to be a judgment free zone as well. I think that’s a really, 

 

E: Yeah 

 

C: and a confidential zone. 

 

E: Yeah

 

C: Cause I know that anything I say in that space is not going to be, not going to be passed on unless one of you writes a memoir detailing all of our secrets.

 

MJ: I never did, but I might cuss somebody out of you so often charlie am just saying…

 

C: You know what I mean though? It’s like judgment free and you just feel like this is a confidential space, you know what I mean?

 

E: Yeah.

 

[uplifting music]

 

W: Well, Ellie, I found that a really uplifting conversation. It does remind me, I think, of the real vital importance of human connection and how finding the right people to be in our connective networks can have such a positive impact on mental health. And as you know, Ellie, I do like a bit of data.

 

E: Go on.

 

W: So, a 2022 UK government study found that people experiencing chronic loneliness are four times more likely to experience mental distress than those who don’t. A 2021 study by the National Institute for Health and Care Research found a clear correlation between loneliness and depression, and I’ll put all these links in the show notes, but I guess the headline is it kind of points to something which on one level of course is kind of common sense, right? But it just points to how important being connected is in order to maintain a good mental health.

 

E: Yeah, yeah. 

 

W: I mean, I think to finish off with, I wanted to just note that there may be some people listening to this podcast who are experiencing loneliness and who are maybe thinking to themselves, where do I start if I want to do something similar? From my own personal experience, I know that sometimes it can feel quite daunting. I remember the first few years of me being a freelancer, it took, it took, years to find the right people who I could just kind of connect with in that space 

 

E: Yeah

 

W: and at times I just thought crikey I’m never going to meet people and eventually I found people and now they’re very good friends and colleagues that I work alongside.

 

E: Yeah I think what I’d say is that like I applied for and was grateful to receive funding but that isn’t what this is about really. So for us, for me Charlie and Jackie I think it’s, one of the important things we have is a very shared understanding of living with a disability, all of the complexities of healthcare, medical trauma, all of this stuff which friends might sort of know but they don’t get it. And so for me, and well I think for each of us, that is such an important part of why it’s such a caring space because we all know exactly what each other’s talking about straight away basically. What I hope people can maybe think about is, if you meet someone or and you have that kind of chemistry or you meet someone you just, whatever it is, just like really gets it. Just to be aware that actually someone just really getting it is so valuable, and that that is a friendship worth investing in and yeah evidently it doesn’t matter if they live on the other side of the country. Yeah so that is really important I think.

 

W: I also think that it starts with having a think about what you want that point of connection to be. So for example, a few episodes ago I had a conversation with Alistair Cameron from the fantastic charity ReCoCo in Newcastle, which their main raison d’etre is about just connecting people, bringing people together. 

 

E: mmmm

 

W: That’s their main thing. And just wanting to create spaces where people can be there for each other. Then you’ve got examples like support groups that are out there, 

 

E: Yeah

 

W: countless support groups with various different conditions or experiences that people have. I’ve just recently joined an OCD support group and there’s that almost immediate connection that you feel with people because you are speaking with a shared experience. 

 

E: And therefore a shared kind of understanding of a few key aspects of it so you’re not having to explain every bit in detail when you’re trying to share something. 

 

W: Yeah. And then the other point of connection could well be an interest. So I think about Beacon Films. We’re a production company of disabled and neurodivergent filmmakers and the people that come to Beacon Films come to Beacon Films because they love film and filmmaking. 

 

E: Yeah. 

 

W: You know, that’s why they come. And that’s their point of connection through a shared interest in what for some people is a hobby, very much a hobby. And for other people, they want it to be their vocation. 

 

E: Yeah, definitely.

[music]

 

E: Thank you for listening. As always, you can find us on social media at Live You Minds Pod. 

 

W: Make sure that you subscribe to Live You Minds wherever you get your podcasts and tune in again next month for another episode. 

 

E: Please note that this show does not constitute medical advice and is not a replacement for seeking professional help. You can find sign posting to support on our website, livelymindspod.com

 

W: Take care and bye for now. 

 

E: Bye

 

[whooshing]

 

[electronic music]